Quote: NUNK wrote in post #10Which war did we fight for freedom??????
That'd be the 2nd World war.
That was not a war for freedom more a case of defending yourself We did not stop Hitler when he invaded Poland, Russia and France and killing all the Jews/communists/poets/writers etc. Probably due to the cosy links with the Royal family and the nazi party and then he decided to have a pop at us and of course thats when the yanks stepped in to help and also dont forget that Churchill hated communists so was happy for Hitler to have a pop at Russia. Please don't tell me the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is about Freedom.
Remeberance Sunday is a good day to celebrate all the people who have sacracficed there lives for us but what lessons have we learnt NONE
Well we did throw our hat into the ring when Hitler invaded Poland, we'd signed a pact to defend Poland so thats what the country did. Russia and Germany had already signed a non-aggression pact so that they could carve up Poland between them. Of course Churchill was delighted when Germany attacked Russia, without them fighting on that front we'd have been fucked. Likewise when the Japs attached Pearl Harbour and the Americans were pulled into the war.
But if GB hadn't fought for Poland (or greater Europe some might say), neither Hitler nor Stalin would have stopped there.
Wearing a poppy is not political, its an act of respect and rememberance.
I have never in my life met or seen an ordinary Irish person wearing a poppy, and we're not all driven by Nationalist or Republican beliefs.
Even when I lived in London for 12 years it would never have occured to me to wear one. That wasn't a political statement, just if you'd never worn one before in your life why would you bother now.
I know nothing about McLean's background other than he's from Derry. You can read into that what you want but ultimately it was his choice/decision. It wasn't two fingers up to anything or anybody, the media turned it into that.
Quote: NUNK wrote in post #10Which war did we fight for freedom??????
That'd be the 2nd World war.
That was not a war for freedom more a case of defending yourself We did not stop Hitler when he invaded Poland, Russia and France and killing all the Jews/communists/poets/writers etc. Probably due to the cosy links with the Royal family and the nazi party and then he decided to have a pop at us and of course thats when the yanks stepped in to help and also dont forget that Churchill hated communists so was happy for Hitler to have a pop at Russia. Please don't tell me the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is about Freedom.
Remeberance Sunday is a good day to celebrate all the people who have sacracficed there lives for us but what lessons have we learnt NONE
It wasn't a fight for freedom? Fuck me, I don't know where to start.
Tell you what I'll start with Britain declaring war on Germany (nothing at all to do with Hitler 'deciding to have a pop at us') when they invaded Poland (ask the Poles if the second world war was about freedom!). And if you actually think we did nothing then I suggest you read up on Dunkirk for starters.
^^ i went to caen with a load of vets for the 60th anniversary of d-day. people - young and old - were mobbing the vets. i'd never really considered what it must be like to be in an occupied country before then. incredible how these fellas who did absolutely astounding things were so modest about it all.
I was talking about Great Britain not Poland and if my history is a bit shady then i hold my hands up. its just stuff learnt from school and books (not googled) so there maybe some inaccuricies.
Quote: NUNK wrote in post #56I was talking about Great Britain not Poland and if my history is a bit shady then i hold my hands up. its just stuff learnt from school and books (not googled) so there maybe some inaccuricies.
Hitler had plans for the whole of Europe including Britain. It was most definitely a fight for our freedom.
[quote=Niall|p200856]I have never in my life met or seen an ordinary Irish person wearing a poppy, and we're not all driven by Nationalist or Republican beliefs.
completely wrong there Niall, there was loads of poppies on view in my local town over the weekend and that's a relatively small provincial town. I take it you've never heard of the annual Remembrance Sunday event at Island Bridge?
Shouldn't be forgotten that tens of thousands of Irish people from the Republic and the Nationalist tradition died in the Great War.
The british army murdered a number of unarmed men in this guy's hometown. A crime which the UK only apologised for two years ago (it happened in 72).
The poppy remembers all British soldiers that have passed. Some of those that shot the members of his community might be included in that, they might not, regardless the guy is hardly going to associate himself with the appeal.
Quote: ryan wrote in post #60The british army murdered a number of unarmed men in this guy's hometown. A crime which the UK only apologised for two years ago (it happened in 72).
The poppy remembers all British soldiers that have passed. Some of those that shot the members of his community might be included in that, they might not, regardless the guy is hardly going to associate himself with the appeal.
there were IRA terrorists on the street that day, including the innocent martin macguiness(i right), when did that cunt ever apologise for his armys atrocities.
Ok Ryan, the IRA murdered 21 innocent people on November 21st 1974 in my home town but I hold no malice against Irish people and I am of Irish descent but I wear a poppy.
Quote: UncleAlbert wrote in post #62Ok Ryan, the IRA murdered 21 innocent people on November 21st 1974 in my home town but I hold no malice against Irish people and I am of Irish descent but I wear a poppy.
So you would pay respects to dead members of the IRA?
Quote: Niall wrote in post #52[b]I have never in my life met or seen an ordinary Irish person wearing a poppy[/b], and we're not all driven by Nationalist or Republican beliefs.
Even when I lived in London for 12 years it would never have occured to me to wear one. That wasn't a political statement, just if you'd never worn one before in your life why would you bother now.
I know nothing about McLean's background other than he's from Derry. You can read into that what you want but ultimately it was his choice/decision. It wasn't two fingers up to anything or anybody, the media turned it into that.
my auntie from south of dublin, lives in england, has done since the 70s, goes to sunderland cenotaph each year to honour the war dead. never had a problem wearing a poppy. whats this pricks excuse coming from the north??
Quote: UncleAlbert wrote in post #62Ok Ryan, the IRA murdered 21 innocent people on November 21st 1974 in my home town but I hold no malice against Irish people and I am of Irish descent but I wear a poppy.
So you would pay respects to dead members of the IRA?
And you equate the IRA with the British army?
"The nightmares invading the sleep of Bayern fans involve four horsemen of the Champions League Apocalypse riding towards them. As the faces come into focus, they will recognise Frank Lampard, Cole, Petr Cech and Drogba. All were immense..."
Quote: UncleAlbert wrote in post #62Ok Ryan, the IRA murdered 21 innocent people on November 21st 1974 in my home town but I hold no malice against Irish people and I am of Irish descent but I wear a poppy.
So you would pay respects to dead members of the IRA?
And you equate the IRA with the British army?
Doesn't matter if I do or not. Does James McLean is what you should be asking.
It was your example hence I asked you. I think it's pretty clear what the lad thinks.
"The nightmares invading the sleep of Bayern fans involve four horsemen of the Champions League Apocalypse riding towards them. As the faces come into focus, they will recognise Frank Lampard, Cole, Petr Cech and Drogba. All were immense..."
Quote: ryan wrote in post #63[quote=UncleAlbert|p200915]Ok Ryan, the IRA murdered 21 innocent people on November 21st 1974 in my home town but I hold no malice against Irish people and I am of Irish descent but I wear a poppy.
[b]So you would pay respects to dead members of the IRA?[/[/b]quote] And you equate the IRA with the British army?
Doesn't matter if I do or not. Does James McLean is what you should be asking.
Quote: RamseesCFC wrote in post #68It was your example hence I asked you. I think it's pretty clear what the lad thinks.
I was pointing out that UncleAlberts point has no relevance unless he supports the IRA.
I was just pointing out one is (was) a terrorist organisation and illegal whilst the other is the national guard of the country. That's all.
"The nightmares invading the sleep of Bayern fans involve four horsemen of the Champions League Apocalypse riding towards them. As the faces come into focus, they will recognise Frank Lampard, Cole, Petr Cech and Drogba. All were immense..."
he ought to be sent to the gas chambers, obviously.
in response to some of the replies on here, generally about the wearing of the poppy.
this is a symbol where people are now criticised if they dont fucking wear it, more importantly in my mind, there is an illusion, by some, that by wearing something on your coat, that automatically means you fully understand and respect the situations it is said to represent, and others become some form of enemy, it has become blind.
simply put - the poppy unfortunately is not just a symbol of remembrance, it is surrounded by jingoistic sentiment that continue to somehow glorify war...it has become part of the war machine. (im relatively sure the army sees increased uptake of applications around remembrance day)
i passed by the parade on sunday, and it does bring a tear to the eye.
harry patch on war (one of the last living ww1 veterans) has described war as "legalised mass murder"
remembrance is not the problem, it is how and what we remember, that is.
i quite liked this section of an article written by john wight , you may too....(you might not)
The liberal bandying around of words such as 'sacrifice' and 'heroism' at this time of year, usually by well fed, privileged politicians and commentators who've probably never experienced as much as a punch in the face much less combat, reveals an atrocious lack of understanding of the terror these young men experience in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.
The notion that an 18-year-old from an under privileged background signs up with the resolve to sacrifice his life for his country is a lie. They sign up looking to escape the drab and dim prospects offered them at home, seduced by the illusion of excitement and adventure abroad. At eighteen or nineteen you think you are invincible, imbued with a sense of your own immortality, and as such malleable and open to the propaganda that feeds the militarism that has run as a continuing thread throughout Britain's history.
No amount of training could ever prepare these young men for the horrors of war, for the sight of their mates being blown apart beside them, the sight of women and children slaughtered, and no amount of bugles and parades could ever compensate those who return maimed and/or psychologically damaged as a consequence, whereupon they are left to the mercy of charity.
reached for the secret too soon, cried for the moon.
Quote: ryan wrote in post #64What I'm trying to say is; there is two sides here, why would anyone expect someone from the other side to pay respect to theirs?
I wouldn't pay respects to any terrorist whatever side they were from. As Ramsees said there is no comparison between men and women who have given the ultimate sacrifice defending freedom and fighting fascism not just the British army but honouring the dead from all the Allies. I can't believe people in this country can criticise people for wearing a poppy
No one has criticised anyone for not wearing a poppy. There's terrorists on both sides (British and IRA).. be it state sanctioned or not. Although why the IRA has been brought up in this thread is only further evidence of point scoring over this whole situation. James McClean didn't not wear a poppy because he's an IRA sympathiser - there has been nothing to suggest so. But the IRA gets brought up as a form of point scoring in response to the genuine reasons relating to Bloody Sunday that McClean may have had.
This whole issue of point scoring is fucking sad and it's mainly being indulged in by those who claim to have the utmost respect for the symbol of the poppy.
I can't imagine anyone from his part of Derry has ever wore a poppy on rememberance Sunday because of what happened on Bloody Sunday and the cover up which followed. Just because he's a footballer doesn't mean he has to be a sheep and follow suit breaking habits of a lifetime when theirs still strong feelings towards what the British army done to those poor people on that tragic day.
Has anyone thought of it from the other side and the grief he might have got for wearing one if he ever returned home ? Couple of Internet bam pots could have been the least of his worries.
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Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:52 pm
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